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 Post subject: Stopping Amateur DJ's Messing With Volumes
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:43 am 
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Posts: 8
Hi.
I'm a new 260 user.
I do sound hire from time to time, and although amp volumes are set to an optimal position, dj's sometimes fiddle with it. Could i not set all amps to max and then adjust the gain at xover.
Would this method sacrifice headroom?


Thanx Jzzen
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

Best bet for DJ work is to slightly UNDER power the speakers (meaning if there is a 200-400-800 power rating give them NO MORE then 400 watts0, run em wide open and set a brick wall limiter on the 260...You will need to also do a gain structure as in the "Start here" thread...


You can also then set up password protecton for your settings that a DJ can't monkey with...

BTW this thread is more than a year old, instead of hijacking a thread please consider starting a new one... this way lurkers can also learn more..

Thanks

Gadget


___________________________________________________________________________________________________


When you say 200 400 800 power ratings, does the 400 represent the RMS or AES value?

Thanks

Jzzen


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 Post subject: Re: Stopping Amateur DJ's Messing With Volumes
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:57 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:44 pm
Posts: 787
Location: Los Angeles
jzzen wrote:
When you say 200 400 800 power ratings, does the 400 represent the RMS or AES value?

200/400/800 represents continuous/programme/peak. "Continuous" is often erroneously referred to as RMS but RMS is actually a method of measurement rather than a power rating. AES is a specific standard for rating continuous power (It is pink noise filtered between 125Hz and 8kHz with a peak to average ratio of 6dB and applied over a period of two hours)

Dennis

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 Post subject: Re: Stopping Amateur DJ's Messing With Volumes
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:12 am 
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Dennis wrote:
jzzen wrote:
When you say 200 400 800 power ratings, does the 400 represent the RMS or AES value?

200/400/800 represents continuous/programme/peak. "Continuous" is often erroneously referred to as RMS but RMS is actually a method of measurement rather than a power rating. AES is a specific standard for rating continuous power (It is pink noise filtered between 125Hz and 8kHz with a peak to average ratio of 6dB and applied over a period of two hours)

Dennis


So, to translate that, would my amp rated at 200 watts be reduced by 1.5dB or so?
What I'm trying to ask is how do I translate 400 watt program into a dB setting on the driverack and a 200watt amp?
Or do I use an amp with a higher power rating?


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 Post subject: Re: Stopping Amateur DJ's Messing With Volumes
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:05 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:44 pm
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Location: Los Angeles
I don't understand the question. Maybe post what equipment you have (and if you already have, I missed it and I'm sorry)

Dennis

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 Post subject: Re: Stopping Amateur DJ's Messing With Volumes
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:12 pm 
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Posts: 8
My last questions are based upon Gadget's reply to the 1st post of this thread (i originally started this thread by hijacking someone else's thread where gadget answered my question but gave me a telling off!!
I have simply copied and pasted this into what is now the 1st post of this thread)

Ratings quotede in last post was just an example.
My system comprises of 260, Crest Audio CA12 driving 4 fanexb600watts subs
Both amp and speakers AES rating are matched when driving all 4 subs

I am just trying to protect these speakers when i hire out equipment to inexperienced tone deaf djs who tend to have the mixer's meters constanly in the red!


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 Post subject: Re: Stopping Amateur DJ's Messing With Volumes
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:46 pm 
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Location: Los Angeles
jzzen wrote:
i originally started this thread by hijacking someone else's thread where gadget answered my question but gave me a telling off!!

That sounds so negative...my impression was that you received a gentle scolding. But never mind that...on to the business at hand! Is the purpose of the questions that you are asking an effort to better understand how to set limiters and protect your equipment? Trying to translate 400W into a dB setting is confusing to me.

Dennis

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 Post subject: Re: Stopping Amateur DJ's Messing With Volumes
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:12 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 6:01 pm
Posts: 4821
Location: Northern Minnesota
jzzen...

Quote:
BTW this thread is more than a year old, instead of hijacking a thread please consider starting a new one... this way lurkers can also learn more..


I think perhaps a difference of culture perhaps here? I was NOT even "gently scolding" you but trying to indicate how forum decorum is conducted. Fact is, the posters here usually get what they need and are never heard from again. Further, we have to scroll through a bunch of text and posts to get to the questions AND have to go back and re-read what the OP wrote to get the whole gist of what's being discussed...

Had you posted this way in a forum like the PSW.... you would have come away with significant scalding...

I even said "please" :mrgreen:

If you follow my posts you will find that as moderators go (yes I'm a moderator here) I leave a wide latitude here in all things.

Quote:
So, to translate that, would my amp rated at 200 watts be reduced by 1.5dB or so?
What I'm trying to ask is how do I translate 400 watt program into a dB setting on the driverack and a 200watt amp?
Or do I use an amp with a higher power rating?


The thing here is that with a limiter such as the Driveracks, has a number of controls that allow you to customize how much, and how hard the limiters affect the program material. Part of what I wrote to you suggested you do a proper gain structure which will reveal where all the equipment naturally clips, and as I am, often heard to say... your far better off to let the gain structure , and natural clipping point be the determining factor for normal operation, and let the limiter be an OOPS/// I dropped the mic kind of protection.

In this case your probably better off cranking the amps, setting a brick wall limiter and then playing the type of music played, then with the amps lightly clipping dial down the threshold till no clipping is present, no matter where the master faders end up...

***NOTE*** this method can result in a higher amp duty cycle! Which can heat up voice coils! This also allows the master faders to be part of the problem here...

The BEST way to insure you have something left AFTER DJ's run your stuff is to threaten to KILL them... (sorry.. I digress) no actually to use the gain structure method, where the mixer AND amps are set to clip together, then lower the amps input sensitivity till the amps are no longer clipping, and perhaps a bit more for headroom, then put tamper proof covers on the amps and THEN set the brick wall limiter for OOPS protection.

No scolding, no telling off... just logical assertions that help keep the forum running smoothly, making it easier for us old sound guys to comprehend and answer the myriad of questions posted here.

Gadget

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I'm not an everlasting fountain of information but perhaps much more an unstoppable leak

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 Post subject: Re: Stopping Amateur DJ's Messing With Volumes
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:56 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:44 pm
Posts: 787
Location: Los Angeles
Gadget wrote:
significant scalding...

Very funny

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Audix TR40 (2)
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 Post subject: Re: Stopping Amateur DJ's Messing With Volumes
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:22 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:44 am
Posts: 8
Dennis and Gadget...........forgive me for giving you both the wrong impression..............jsut a little slight humour with both of you that simply didn't wash.
I am relatively new to forums and didn't intentionaly mean to hijack the thread. Yes, you were very polite when making me aware of it, so thank You.............i never had any doubt of that fact!!!
So...........no offence was taken!! I will refrain from humour and stick to my point, from no on!!!!!

Gadget, Thank You very much for your last post. You have given me a simple and clear answer which i understand fully...........Thanks again!
Your fisrt (original) reply mentioning wattage ratings just threw me off course a little bit.
I will now carry out a gain structure setting procedure for both of my mixer and amps, and then setup the limiter to kick in before my amps clip as instructed.

I am grateful for both of your inputs, Dennis and Gadget and i am sincerely a easy going type of person that doesn't take offence...........I just take a little time to understand things that make pure sense to you both!

Best regards

Jzzen


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 Post subject: Re: Stopping Amateur DJ's Messing With Volumes
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:51 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 6:01 pm
Posts: 4821
Location: Northern Minnesota
That my friend is what pure writing does NOT express (emotion) and emoticons do! :mrgreen:

For instance...

I think JBL speakers are the BOMB :roll: read thet (YA right... NOT)

That dress makes you butt look good :lol: (in your dreams!)

YOUR SOUND IS REALLY GOOD :shock: :shock: :shock: (turn that @*#%$ thing DOWN!)

bose makes some really fine equipment :x :cry: :evil: :twisted: :roll: :? ( better sound through marketing)

Gadget gave me a darn good whacking! :mrgreen: :lol: :D :wink: you get the picture.. right :lol:
G

_________________
There is no surer way to ruin a good discussion than to contaminate it with facts

I'm not an everlasting fountain of information but perhaps much more an unstoppable leak

2, BLOWN Galaxy Hotspots, with MCM audio select replacement drivers!


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 Post subject: Re: Stopping Amateur DJ's Messing With Volumes
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:30 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:44 am
Posts: 8
Gadget wrote:
That my friend is what pure writing does NOT express (emotion) and emoticons do! :mrgreen:

For instance...

I think JBL speakers are the BOMB :roll: read thet (YA right... NOT)

That dress makes you butt look good :lol: (in your dreams!)

YOUR SOUND IS REALLY GOOD :shock: :shock: :shock: (turn that @*#%$ thing DOWN!)

bose makes some really fine equipment :x :cry: :evil: :twisted: :roll: :? ( :P better sound through marketing)


Gadget gave me a darn good whacking! :mrgreen: :lol: :D :wink: you get the picture.. right :lol:
G




:!: Yep! Loud and clear! :wink:


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